Like a bitter AROMA

Like a bitter AROMA

I recently switched Météo-Parapente to the AROME forecast from Météo-France. It was both an urgent economic necessity, but also – and above all – an improvement. At least, that's what I believe.

(I'm not talking about the temporary disappearance of certain data (precipitation, thermals, wind at altitude). That's temporary. It's just that this information requires a little more work, and that for the moment I'm on the block.)

But since I switched to AROME, I hear a lot of people say that these new forecasts are completely fanciful.

Personally, that surprises me. From a scientific point of view, AROME forecasts should be much more reliable than previous forecasts. In particular, because of the better quality input data.

So I'm trying to figure out where the problem is:

  • AROME, who would be wrong?
  • The files made available, which would be too interpolated?
  • The “Météo-France” brand, which would give the impression of a bad forecast?
  • My system, in which there would be a bug?
  • The user, who would misinterpret this new data?

For now, I'm missing a few clues. All I was told was that the forecasts weren't good. But without knowing neither the place, nor the day, nor the real conditions, that does not help us much. Help me !

Aiguebelette, August 28

Searching the forums, I came across this:

As this message had the merit of specifying a date, a place and the conditions, I conducted my investigation...

So I looked for Aiguebelette:

Which led me to the following predictions:

Indeed, on the right, ceiling announced around 600 meters.

But on the map on the left, I see that the red cursor is placed at the bottom of the relief.

By unchecking the interpolation box (at the bottom of the map), we see the "pixels" of the model appear. Here, the right forecast therefore corresponds to the "landing" pixel.

The colors of the map guide us. You can clearly see that the ceiling is low above the two lakes. The relief is more colorful.

So I clicked on a neighboring pixel, this time on the relief:

There, the announced ceiling exceeds 1500 meters. The forecast has nothing to do with the previous one. However, the cursor has moved very little.

A beginning of explanation?

For now, I don't have enough real feedback. This unique case does not make it possible to understand what is happening. However, some assumptions can be made.

My first hypothesis is that the AROME model works at a much finer level than before. Before, we had an average forecast, fairly consistent from one point to another. Now, we have too many details and therefore we get lost. Personally, I don't find it shocking to have 1500 of plaf on a relief and very little down at the edge of the lake. So that would mean that our old approach is no longer suitable. Either we have to point more precisely, or we have to reinvent a new way of presenting all that.

My second hypothesis is linked to the previous one: the AROME model works at a much finer level than before. But Météo-France does not provide us with the raw outputs of AROME. The files we are given are interpolated on a different grid. So we have more details than before, but the interpolation completely destroys the information by mixing everything up a bit haphazardly. Basically, we make noise. Here I am speculating a bit. I wish someone would prove me wrong.

And now ?

For now, I'll leave the site as it is. Time to see if there is something wrong and, if so, what...

If we realize that the AROME forecasts are not usable, we will set up a plan of attack. I'm not against backtracking, if that makes sense.

In the meantime, I'm counting on you to compare the forecasts to reality, and try to see if it sticks or not.

52 thoughts on “ Like a bitter AROMA »

  1. Hello,
    I am a balloonist and I notice that the wind speeds predicted on your site are very often higher than reality (sometimes double!) I specify that I sail in free atmosphere.
    Good reception

    1. Can you specify a little more? Otherwise, we cannot solve the problem...

      The old previews or the aroma previews?

      Where ?
      Very often ? = which days?

    2. I am a very big user of the site and regularly take stock of the differences between forecasts and observations. I confirm that the model overestimates the wind by at least 20 to 30%.
      I can say that this is partly due to the topographic model proposed by the site (in the "miscellaneous" tab). In fact, this greatly underestimates the relief (30%). For example, a peak at 1000 m is only 750 m in the model. However, this does not explain the overestimation of the intensity of the wind in the open air, far from the relief.

    3. I look at the forecasts which are quite reliable except for the wind which is overestimated I compare with windity which is very reliable in terms of wind and rain we can see the wind on the surface and at different altitudes as well as the direction I fly every flyable days in gourdon and windyty is 90% good and over several days which is interesting if you travel. thank you for your work which is very much appreciated.

    4. On the previous model I confirm that the wind was very regularly overestimated and sometimes by 50%.
      On the other hand, his direction is very often precise. As for ceilings, they were mostly a little underestimated by 300 m on average.
      I fly in the South near the Sainte Victoire.
      The current model seems indeed too precise . lately during crossable days and sometimes a few 100 m apart, abnormal ceilings were placed side by side. syyle 2500 m ceiling and just next to 1500m. hell of a difference!
      Should the raw data be smoothed a little more????

  2. Stupid question: are there archives of calculations made with the old model that could be compared with data from AROME on the same date, just to understand the differences. Where would it be possible to redo a calculation, for example for Aiguebellette on August 28, with the old model.
    Because there is still a possibility that Arome, like the old model, crashed that day.
    When the old model crashes, "it happens that it's wrong", but if the new model crashes, it's bad...

  3. Good morning. I am the author of the example taken from the topic of the Vario forum (Deuchiste). At first sight, however, I did the same analysis as you when I saw the cursor pointing in blue at the Aiguebelette landing stage and when I noticed that further east, at the ridge, we were in green, around 1 to 13. On August 1400, contrary to the opinion of a colleague who strictly speaking looked at the "blue level", we still went to L'Epine and your predictions were confirmed since we were able to make a flight of "nearly 28 hours with, for me, a ceiling of 3 m. ;-)) So, continue, you are right!

  4. Hi Nicolas,
    A much greater hindsight is obviously necessary to appreciate the new model. And ideally a transition period with the display of the 2 models would have been an excellent thing.
    In any case, the old model regularly had problems with wind speeds and ceilings.
    In short, it is urgent to wait! But make people aware of a precise location (keeping in mind Arome's resolution of 1.3km).
    A + Pascal

  5. First of all, thank you for the site which has become essential to everyday life: I plan every barbecue or outing with it (flights of course too)!

    And precisely, since switching to the Arôme model, I trust it much less:
    3 weeks ago, I had planned a barbecue and the forecast of the day before was totally wrong: It rained hard in the morning, then it was expected to be sunny and a light rain in the afternoon. By comparison, the GFS model was much closer to reality. Very frequently, the Arpège model is in total disagreement with Arome and it is Arpège that seems to be right most often. But the GFS model looks even better. And your site before was in agreement with GFS but more precise. Since switching to Arome, I no longer know what credit to give it. I will monitor and provide further feedback.

    Moreover, the rain forecast is very lacking: your site is not only used for flights (even for flights, I don't want my device to rust even if the ceiling allows flights).

    1. Concerning the forecast of the rains I agree with you Arôme is whimsical especially in the forecast of the cobvective rains as said below you should not be satisfied with a single scenario but taking several arpeggios gives good results

  6. Hello Nicolas,
    I flew on Tuesday 01-09 on the St Pabu site near St Brieuc (22). Deco 13:40 p.m. landing 15:56 p.m.
    ATOS VRT wing with a good sink rate (0,8m/s).
    http://www.onlinecontest.org/olc-2.0/para/flightinfo.html?dsId=4730543
    The maximum altitude profile seems correct for the flight performed. I climb higher at the start of the flight (300m) than later (220m). Vz data is missing to justify the difference in height (500m on the forecast).
    The force of the wind is relatively exact because I make the minimum height around 14:48 p.m. at 112m but the wind is generally weaker than the forecast, especially in gusts (25 to 28 km/h maximum at the beacon for 30 to 33 km/h for the forecast ).
    It is necessary to continue to use this model which seems more precise by integrating the Vz and the mm of rain.
    A 3-day forecast would be welcome to organize outings a little in advance.
    On XC Skies it is possible to predict the MTO conditions encountered on a given course. It's a ++.

    Good luck!

  7. Hello,

    First of all, thank you for your work which greatly facilitates our cross country preparations...
    I somewhat agree with the example you cited in your article. Last Sunday, given the paragliding weather forecast, I was hesitant to go cross-country or take a hike to Mt Trélod. Given the advertised ceilings, I left for a hike. Finally, taking off around 14 p.m., we climbed to 2500 while the ceiling was announced at 2000, to walk to the Col de la Forclaz where again the announced ceilings were not great. Around 16:00 p.m., I still did 2400 I believe at Lanfonnet to return to the Bauges.
    I am well aware that forecasts remain forecasts but I have the impression that all ceilings are seen to be lowered.
    Good luck
    cordially

  8. I think that this feeling of dissatisfaction with AROME by meteo-paragliding users is mainly due to human factors:
    The presentation has not changed except for the gaps and your information on the right, however the data itself is presented differently: more precisely as you describe in your article. Just look at the entire map of France on the site to realize that the thickness of the convective layer is much tighter on the massifs than it was with RASP.
    So we don't know how to "read" this card.

    I have always been very precise in placing my cursors because in its own way RASP also shows differences. They were less significant on the latter, but they existed. In your example, we cannot compare with the RASP forecasts, nor know if the weather situation was difficult to predict, etc. I think it is therefore far too early to judge the model. Because there are far too many factors to take into account to have an overall view of the situation.

    Just to boost morale, because the dissatisfied are probably noisier than the satisfied, I have seen pretty good forecasts since AROME was set up: yesterday I flew at Laffrey like a dozen pilots. Deco 18 p.m., a relatively slightly cyclic flow but generally very laminar between 0-6-13 km/h at the beacon. The model at this time predicts 13 km/h, gust to 10 meters at 24 km/h (number in red?) but the cursor is placed further west of the beacon and in the Laffrey venturi. So logically a little more.
    At the landing at 19 p.m., 2 km/h is forecast and 10-14 km/h in the convective layer, confirmation on site. I don't have a GPS trace, but you can ask Greg at the ESI for one, who flew at the same time as me.
    Concerning ceilings in a day without sun, it was a little overestimated while being very precise on the height of the clouds in low layer throughout the day (announced at around 1100+ at 19 p.m. according to AROME, which must have been the case (cloud about 200 m above the deco, i.e. 1150+) And this whether we look at the reliefs or in the plain.

    Regarding Arthur's barbecue, I don't understand: there is no representation of rain on meteo-paragliding at the moment. Despite the announced sun (absence of cloud in low layer?) rains would have been possible. In short, it seems to me to be speculation to determine the accuracy of the model from a few feelings, mine included.

    What is interesting is that it is now possible with the pioupious API and the AROME data to compare all this in lots of different places (valley, peaks, etc.) and also some GPS tracks to look at the ceilings . And if it is possible to calculate in addition RASP alongside, and possible other models, we can determine both the well-established pioupious, the most relevant models, the standard deviation on runs a few days (+ 2/+3 days as I believe a wind site for kiting does).

    In short, let's leave time to time. I think it's better to rebuild all the functions of the site before making a decision, even if it means taking the risk of working on it for nothing until you know if AROME is reliable or not.

    Besides, I thought you were going to do a RASP by replacing the source data with AROME. I didn't think that AROME was so precise "basically" and that it didn't require all the calculations you were doing on top of it.

    Nice job peeps!

    1. Regarding the rain, indeed, there is none and it is a big lack at the moment. I deduce it by the large concentrations of low clouds. And the problem occurred on the day of the site switchover: in the absence of forecasts, I fell back on another site and the Arome and Arpège models from this one, leading me to predict a light rain in the afternoon. . The site had reappeared and had confirmed the data of Arome and contradicts Aprège and GFS while allowing to zoom much more. But, in the end, no model was right that day but Arome was completely off the mark: showers and low clouds in the 77 in the morning instead of 50% high clouds while these showers were expected on the Normandy side either 1/2 day or 200km of error! But, maybe that day was special since I've never seen as much difference with the forecasts as that day (but, unfortunately, weather-paragliding almost HS that day).

  9. We must not forget that this is a simulation, I have been doing forecasting for 20 years and the rule is to use several models to compare the different scenarios concerning Aroma I noticed that on one hour to hour we could have strong variations of the PBL (boundary layer) something that we did not have with WRF the ideal is to have the 2 models on the site

  10. As far as I am concerned in Cahors in the Lot MeteoParapente does not yet replace Meteo-France, Meteociel and NOAA. Maybe it will come? And that doesn't stop me from always consulting MeteoParapente before going to fly.

    1. Meteo-Parapente does not replace these sites, it complements them! It is the only one that allows you to finely zoom in on the day before, hour by hour and at all altitudes. It is not useful to zoom so much in the forecasts at 3 days or more. The other sites do the job very well. It is not useful to scatter and redo what others do very well. What is missing and what is useful is to improve the detailed forecasts of the day before and present them legibly (not as Météo-France does).

  11. Hello, this afternoon wind forecast in Saint Claire sur epte more than 20 km / h I had this for 20 min around 14:30 p.m. after the rest of the afternoon between 5 and 15 km / h no way to hang the trees ceiling 20 m even with a big black one above

  12. Would it be possible to have with the new model the same indicators as with the old one. For example the wind map at 1000m or at 2000m? Same for the rain?
    The zoom level of the paragliding weather maps made it possible to have a fairly precise idea of ​​the evolution of the conditions on a spot. It was very convenient...

  13. Are you going to extend your field of forecasting to the whole of Europe? In fact being on Andalusia, am a little frustrated to see that of the rest of Spain just above my head!!! Lol...

  14. By comparing the histogram of the FFVL beacons available on murblanc.org (example: Allevard), we have an average of 10km/h of wind recorded and the meteo-paragliding forecasts give the same thing for the box where the beacon is located. so it can't be bad

  15. The forecast is good if you make the effort to analyze several points on the map. It's just that the resolution of the model is finer…and that's good because it's more precise!

  16. Hello,
    I am posting here my observations of the past few weeks concerning the announced ceilings:
    – impressions for the moment based on an observation of several days: it seems that the forecasts change enormously between the evening run and that of the next morning (the ceilings systematically lose 300 m in the night)
    – confirmation this Friday, September 4: Thursday evening ceilings announced around 2000 m at Mont Poupet, Friday morning the ceilings have lost 300 m after the morning run…
    – comparison to reality: the ceilings were at 2100 m, the evening run therefore seems fairer than that of the next morning. surprising no?

  17. Hello, a year ago I paid 4€ for the mtofrance forecasts per month and I compared with Mto paragliding where the wind forecasts were incomparably better! So I stopped funding a service that brought nothing except maybe when the Mto was very uncertain so maybe the computing power of mtof made the difference... Recently mtoparapente experienced some disruptions and windyty arrived, its computer graphics are quite brilliant for the representation of wind maps, my main concern for flying in a paramotor, so I was able to visualize the wind in layers, which makes mtopara more difficult. Since the intro of the much vaunted aroma model I thought that you would continue to perform the calculations from the raw data and not to serve mtof soup… But I don't know much about it… In any case, mtoparagliding would have to find a certain tranquility, I know that you already know 200% thank you again for all that you do. In the meantime my piou 293 is running and there too I am surprised at some dif with the nearby air base I am following it on mtobalises tb! All this is time for money and work, I trust you to give us the best, good luck.

    1. A redesign of the site could perhaps change the perception of the forecasts but basically to follow the aroma model… It is effectively to reproduce the same thing as the others… The company will be done with windyty now for guys like me who are evolving between 0/500 with a minimum of convection…

  18. Hello

    Indeed, I agree with the commentators who are (for the moment) a little skeptical about the contribution of the Arome data.

    For example last week during the GB + NL open in St André, it was announced on Tuesday and Wednesday that there was a fairly marked southerly trend (I don't remember well but around 20km/h qd even) while we have it was rather breezy, with perhaps a bit of a southerly turn at the start of the day, but that did not prevent 140 competitors + a few other pilots (including me) from taking off against the wind at the west takeoff
    In general, it seems to me that the forecast wind values ​​are actually quite higher than those observed. Well, I am even aware that all of this is based on individual observations and may not have sufficient statistical weight; like others above I think that there would be an interesting work by bringing together the data of the forecasts and those noted by the networks of beacons. To be offered as part of student work, not necessarily a thesis but a grade or two below?

  19. Hello,
    During the French championship in the Vosges, the wind forecasts were VERY precise and observed precisely on the flight sites.
    Last weekend (August 29-30), in Chamonix, the wind indicated was correct in strength and direction. The ceiling heights and the emagram indicated low ceilings (about 2000m) and no cloudiness, and in practice there was an inversion at this altitude, but above the instability was excellent with significant cumulus on the Sunday with a base at 3000m.
    So my return to sum up: Wind: Excellent. Ceiling and instability: okay.
    Hope this can help,
    Martin

  20. Following the change of model, I was disconcerted by the first previews, which did not "resemble" at all what we had before. The first subjective reaction that comes is "it's rotten", and then by digging a little... a priori not that much!

    Previously, if I selected a site, the wind/alti warning had a fairly good correlation with the interpretations that I could make from MeteoBlue emagrams among others, without worrying about the specific point selected (in particular deco/aterro)

    By digging a little, I came to make roughly the same assumptions as you, applied to the site of Arbas in the Pyrenees.
    – we now have wind/ceiling information which can strongly depend on whether we select the bottom of the valley or the ridges, a priori normal (!), we must therefore pay attention to it and check which point we select . Depending on the conditions, there is / or not, a noticeable difference between the reliefs and the plain, and on some samples, this seems rather consistent with what actually happened.

    – in southerly flows over the Pyrenees, the fine modeling of the wind in each valley seems realistic, we can very well visualize valleys where the south is channeled and accelerated, and other sheltered areas with a return northerly flow. We can even visualize these phenomena on the single ceiling map, which depends just north of the chain of convergence/divergence phenomena between these flows. These days are not really flyable so hard to verify, but in any case from this angle what is represented seems realistic.

    – from there to know if there are not too many artefacts in the middle of all that, it will be interesting to share in more detail the feedback.

    – and there is probably a way to reflect, for an immediate overview on a site / flight area, on composite indicators (average ceiling vs. height from the ground etc…). Perhaps the best of them is simply the ceiling map, which I used to use very little at the expense of the Wind/Alti, and which I now tend to look at much more.

  21. Hello,

    Here is a return on 2 flights made at the end of August. I no longer have the forecast history in front of me. After the flight, I went to reread the prevs. Here is what I remember:

    Flight of 27/08/2015. Plaf at 3300 in the confluence. Complies with the meteo-paragliding forecast. Wind, correct timing.
    Same for 28/07. Small plafs in accordance with forecasts. Max 2500/2600 at the col des fromages. Wind and correct timing.
    These weren't days with strong thermals… so maybe easier to predict and closer to the parameters of the meteo-france models.

    Flight check-in:
    http://david.chazalviel.online.fr/mailbox/meteo-parapente/vols-fin-aout-queyras/2015-08-27-13-22.igc
    http://david.chazalviel.online.fr/mailbox/meteo-parapente/vols-fin-aout-queyras/2015-08-28-13-27.igc
    (in case of later deletion of the files contact me by email)

    Last weekend, at the end of Lake Annecy (Attero SIV). Saturday and Sunday forecasts fully consistent in wind speed and timing. It went as planned between 9 a.m. and 18 p.m. No observation outside this range.

    I think it's the new precision of the prevs and our delay in adapting that makes us think that there are sometimes mistakes. We now have to get the ceiling forecasts where the thermals are. It may require a tool and a specific representation to indicate the best plafs in a given perimeter rather than a specific point.

    I also use meteo-paragliding in winter to anticipate snowfall. If it were possible to have precipitation forecasts for the whole night, it would allow us to know what time to set the alarm clock to clear the snow from the front of the door and get the car out! 😉 I am one of the meteo-paragliding users who have found other features on the site. BBQ forecast included!

  22. Hello,
    I bring a stone to the building 🙂
    My flight is a little dated but the ceilings I made that day did not seem to me at all planned by the data on the site (I do this from memory). I made a ceiling at 2300m on the Sainte Victoire while the forecasts predicted less than 2000m. With the old data, I never had such a surprise by emplafonning the ceilings announced
    http://parapente.ffvl.fr/cfd/liste/2014/vol/20176209

  23. I would like to say that the work done on meteo-paragliding is very appreciable for the whole community, and that everyone is very grateful for it. Even those who groan when it doesn't work or when there are adjustments in progress. These are just linguistically clumsy and incorrectly express their attachment to the site. Go ahead Nico don't give up. Don't put pressure on you, we know very well that you will end up concocting a system with small onions. It must not be easy to find where and how to make the adjustments in the tons of data in game, so know that you have our support. Take your time.

  24. "Following the switch to the AROME model, I received a lot of negative comments. It really didn't fly very high.

    I expend incredible energy trying to move the subject forward, and so that in the end we have the best possible forecast. To progress, you have to experiment. But it also means experimenting with tight time and budget constraints. Everything can't always be perfect, and I understand that can be disappointing.

    But given the reactions, sometimes I wonder if it's really worth continuing…"

    I can confirm that your enormous work is extremely useful to me (to us), I too have read all these comments depreciating the new information on the sites, for my part, I have not noticed any discrepancy with reality, I even strongly appreciated the number of bursts surprisingly close to what I could see.
    I hope to see you at the Icarus Cup (with a bottle of course)
    I really appreciate your work

  25. As is often the case, it is often the unhappy ones who bawl the loudest!! but how many say nothing and are satisfied? the large majority!
    So long live meteo-paragliding!!

  26. +1
    Go on Nicolas It's a good job despite what the dissatisfied people say. The silent majority supports you.

  27. Nicolas, did you investigate the calculation I distributed (à la BOINC) ?
    it would be a good way to involve the "people" (including the grumpy ones).
    In the world of paragliding alone, I'm sure there's a bunch of waiters doing nothing,
    and it's right in the meteo-paragliding spirit.

    1. or remember, but he had written that unfortunately not possible for meteoparagliding because each cluster is dependent on the calculations of the other.

    2. humm … and if we invented a new system, after all we are free !!
      If a cluster is an "entity", can't we distribute "sub-clusters"?

  28. Courage Nicolas do not let yourself down. I find that these have not changed in accuracy. Each site modification creates malcontents who find it difficult to adapt. Look at facebook as soon as you touch the site there are cries of sea eagles.

  29. Thank you Nicolas for all the trouble you take to make things change. I find your weather and pioupiou "adventure" fascinating. We may need to express our contentment a little more "we satisfy them" so that you don't have the impression that there are only dissatisfied people. Courage and congratulations!

  30. On behalf of all the many people who use your site and who do not 'proclaim' their contentment, we thank you very much. For me, your site is THE paragliding weather site where you can quickly see the conditions.
    I use it almost daily for the Dune du Pyla and it's super reliable. Kiters also go there!
    Very useful and reliable in the Pyrenees too.

    Courage, take your time if necessary and good continuation.

  31. Nicolas… Big THANK YOU to you!
    I'm more of a discreet and stealthy type (I don't declare my flights) but in the face of all these pathetic comments from paragliders who generally don't know how to read an emagram, I find it pathetic and allow me to give you my support... silent mass 😉
    Alongside paid meteorological sites, you give us on a silver platter a free site, more efficient and very easy to use… And not without effort!
    So THANK YOU… Because thanks to you, I no longer spend hours on the computer navigating between maps and emagrams; I no longer waste whole days for a small flight or even no flight at all!… On the contrary, I make fewer flights but only beautiful flights or even more!
    Indeed, it is thanks to you that I did not miss a certain August 5th when I made the flight of my life: Ste Victoire-Le Versoud (East of Grenoble)!!!
    Finally, a quote from J. Swift that sums up the situation well: "When a genius appears in this world, we recognize him by this sign that all the fools are in league against him".
    Pascal Oupinie

  32. Hello

    Congratulations for Meteo Parapente, so we can see that we can no longer do without…
    I think you have to uncheck the interpolation, which sometimes estimates my takeoff.

    Keep it up, it's awesome!

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